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+--- Thread: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? (/showthread.php?tid=146)
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When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Nightingale - Jun 30th, 2018
So, I recently picked up a copy of the first Discworld game (a title that's been on my most-wanted list since the early 2000s, due to a number of reasons) and, while I was immediately charmed by it*, I found that every single mention of this game online (including the video by PushingUp Roses that finally made me seek out the game) talks about it being "walkthrough-dependant" due to its pun-based puzzles and the amount of moon-logic found within its world. I did try to play the game on my own for a bit, but the jumps I was expected to make -and particularly the incredibly clunky interface- could more than the amazing graphics, witty writting and simply gorgeous voice-acting. I ended up playing with the guide opened by my side on my phone for the next half-hour or so... however, by doing this I was reminded of a quote by YT Great, Ross Scott:
Quote:Once you are sent online, it's too easy to look the whole thing up.
Unfortunately, he is more than right. I don't think I can face the daunting task of fighting with the interface and the very specific logic the game wants me to use in order to get to the parts where it really shines (all the aforementioned things outside of the gameplay). I really don't like this, but I couldn't solve a single puzzle on my own and that cursed interface (which I realize I'm gripping an awful lot about, but it is just that bad) isn't helping any.
So, what do you think? Is there really such thing as a "fair use of a walkthrough" or a "walkthrough-dependant game"? Have you had to resort to one? If so, for how long? Share it with us.
*Only 50% pun.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - queenzelda - Jun 30th, 2018
I relied heavily on a walkthrough for Majora's Mask. Same with Chrono Trigger, if I wanted to get a certain ending for the game. With Majora's Mask it was hard for me to figure out what to do & where to go. You only have three days to get gud sun. And I was like; wtf? I have to beat the boss in under 3 (in game) days? I CAN NOT DO IT CAPTAIN. lol
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Maniakkid25 - Jun 30th, 2018
I just use them because, as a fan of JRPGs, screw you if you think I'm finding out all the secrets on my own, you're out of your goddamn mind. The only thing I should have to say to that sort of thing is "200 lightning bolts dodged in the Thunder Plains", and that argument is shut down.
For those that don't know, in Final Fantasy X, you get special prizes depending on how many lightning bolts you dodge in a row, with it capping out at 200. What's you're reward for this? A piece of one of the Celestial Weapons, which may not be necessary to complete the game, but goddamn it if it will not make your life SO much easier!
Oh, and if you have to say "yeah, but that's the special content; it's not like you actually have that sort of esoteric logic in the main game," then I'll just pull up my list of nonsense puzzles from 1990's Adventure games! Because nothing says "fun" like your progress being stopped cold by a pile of soup cans because you need to spell an entire sentence with "Y" as your only vowel! That's not even a joke; that's literally one of the puzzles of The 7th Guest!
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Dragon Lord - Jun 30th, 2018
I think it's fair to use a walkthrough whenever you want to use one. People who criticize people for using them are complete idiot and need to get their elitist asses off of their high horses.
Not everyone is good at every type of game. Some people need some help getting through a game. So what? If you know you're playing a game that you're not good at, and you decide to use a walk through to get through it, who cares?
Me personally? I always try to get through games on my own without using a walk through. I normally only use walk throughs when it comes to trophy clean-up, or if I know that the game has a ton of missable content that can be hard to find (in which case I will only use the walk through to make sure I don't miss that content -- I'll do all of the dungeons/boss fights/whatever on my own without any help).
It's like people summoning in Dark Souls. A lot of Dark Souls "vets" ridicule new players for summoning help, but I think that's stupid. Let people play the way they want to play. Do I think it's more fun to try to beat the game solo yourself first? Yes, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put someone down for needing help.
Also, the Celestial Weapons in FFX aren't actually that good. It's much better to make your own custom weapons for an end-game build. Celestial Weapons tend to have at least one skill on them that is a complete waste. I believe Auron's CW is actually the only one worth using, due to its special ability. For other characters, it's better to make a custom weapon. So I wouldn't really say that it makes your life so much easier. You're putting in more work for an inferior weapon.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - lp0 on fire - Jun 30th, 2018
My personal philosophy is thus:
Is the game multiplayer? yes -> Is the guide able to be seen/used by all players? Yes? Any time you want to use it No? wait until you get really stuck and spread the knowledge
Is the game Multiplayer? No -> Do what ever the hell you want, it affects no one. Cheat for all I care all that matters is that you are having fun.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Nightingale - Jun 30th, 2018
Thanks for the excellent feedback, everyone. Top-notch, as expected.
You all have said a lot of very interesting things and I largely agree with all of it. I still kinda wish developers didn't think it is mandatory for them to make games so hard, you wouldn't solve them otherwise.
I like it a lot better when all I look at is the screen... turning around to my phone really takes a lot from the experience for me.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Kyng - Jul 1st, 2018
Generally, I'll use a walkthrough in two cases:
a) After I've made a serious attempt to solve the problem without the walkthrough, and run out of decent ideas;
b) When I've already completed the main game, and I'm trying to pick up the last few items that I've missed to get to 100%.
I often found myself resorting to the walkthrough in both of these cases when finding the Gold Stars in The Talos Principle. While it's a very good game, I hate how often it broke its own rules >_< .
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Moonface - Jul 1st, 2018
I think it's fine for someone to use a walkthrough whenever they need to use it.
For me personally I use walkthroughs normally when I've tried and failed multiple times to do something and still can't figure out how to do it in any way, or if I'm trying to find collectibles and can't be bothered to keep trying to find them without any hints. However if a game has collectibles but I have no idea what areas of the game they're in or how many, I will likely use a guide right away. Especially if you can't chapter select and so missing one collectible would mean having to replay the entire game over again.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - KingOwl - Jul 3rd, 2018
I agree with the above. I usually go to a walkthrough if I have issues with something.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Hotspot - Jul 3rd, 2018
I try not to use walkthroughs during my first play through, but use them if I've given up. I think they're more interesting when you've already beaten the game (Or at least gotten to the end), because then you might find new discoveries, and you don't necessarily spoil yourself anymore.
There are some games, where there's no way you'd figure something out without a walkthrough. Like recruiting all characters in Suikoden V, (I got the offical strategy guide, and still missed a few characters. lol)
But also games like Chrono Cross, where there's no way I would have learned how to get the true ending on my own. (I still never got a true ending, mainly because a so called friend stole my copy and I was without the game for almost a decade.)
But it really depends on many factors, and the person involved. If you want to spoil yourself or not, or if you've beaten the game already, or if it's just to get past one part, I'd say those are the main things that happen. I personally, try to beat it, or use it to get past one part.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Mr EliteL - Jul 4th, 2018
I think it's fair to use a walkthrough whenever the player needs it. Using one immediately before even starting the game for the first time I don't think is right, but whoever does it then OK. I'd want to at least give a chance to see if I'll get into the game enough to try without a guide to follow. I don't mean a full first play through though, since I have gone through some games needing help then too. I feel similar to everyone else here who'll use a walk through when I get stuck, and anything else I've tried hasn't gotten me anywhere. Or I've lost interest in a section of the game I'm in, and want to hurry up and get to the next part.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Grungie - Jul 8th, 2018
Some of those really old-school RPG's are a nightmare without a walkthrough. Some of the NES and SNES RPG's don't give you much or any direction on where to go next.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Moonface - Jul 10th, 2018
(Jul 8th, 2018, 10:35 PM)Grungie Wrote:This just makes me think of the collectables in GTA V, or some of the levels in the original Tomb Raider games that feel like they were designed with the intent of using a walkthrough to actually do them at all or in a reasonable time frame.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Nightingale - Jul 12th, 2018
Speaking of walkthroughs... look what I found:
![[Image: 20180711_104655.jpg]](https://s26.postimg.cc/plkfo83ft/20180711_104655.jpg)
The game Army Men: World War - Land, Sea, Air pissed me off so much, that I actually set up an Olivetti Studio 44 (yes, a typewriter) beside my PSOne to painstakingly write my very own walkthrough as I was beating it. Believe it or not, that freaking enterprise took eight months to complete... game was just that much of an unapologetic jerk.
Man, I thought I had lost that. Fun times.
RE: When is it fair to use a walkthrough? - Mr EliteL - Jul 13th, 2018
(Jul 12th, 2018, 12:03 AM)Nightingale Wrote:
Oh crap, really? I am so glad I never got that Army Men game, since I was totally into the Army Men games back then. Didn't realise it was a hassle of a game. I am sorry you had to endure that.