Handholding in Games

[Moonface]

After spending 50 hours playing through God of War Ragnarök so far and beating the main story on New Years Eve, one of the biggest gripes I had with the game for that entire time was how none of the NPC's can shut up for even three seconds when it comes to telling the player what to do. There's so many triggers for NPC's getting on the players back that the easiest way to describe them all is with a list:

• Going off the main quest path during an active main quest
  
• Taking longer than two seconds to figure out where you're going
  
• Picking up an item that can be used elsewhere (one side area has dozens of these items, and every time you get one Mimir will suggest going back to where the items can be used)
  
• Not shielding at the right time and taking a hit
  
• "You're on fire Kratos!"
  
• "You're covered in Bifrost brother!"
  
• "You're frozen Kratos!"
  
• Not immediately interacting with a door/switch/trap/etc.
  

I don't even want to continue trying to remember the dozens of other instances that trigger this annoyance because of how persistent it is. Whether you're at the start of the game or the end, nobody wants to act like the player is competent. I could understand if a decent amount of time has passed without the player progressing in a particular room so the game thinks the player is struggling with what to do. I could understand if it happened this much on "Give Me The Story" difficulty where the game removes any challenge for players who just want to get through the main story. But not for any difficulty before the player has a chance to even process what they are looking at in an area or takes any time to do anything but what is the main active focus at a given moment. As an actual in-game example, I was in a room where a grapple point was covered in vines. As soon as I walked through the door, an NPC tells me I need to figure out a way to clear the vines that I've not even had a chance to look at yet. I remove them, getting me a comment of congratulations. However, there's a chest to my immediate right, so I go to open it before I grapple across the gap before me. Not even two steps towards it, and immediately I'm greeted with "You can use that hook to get across brother!" My brother in Aesir, I know what I can use that for. Give me two seconds to collect the item not even three feet away from me before I use it, please!

God of War Ragnarök is by far the worst game I have played when it comes to constantly having the player told what to do by an NPC. What's worse is GoW2018 never did this, but apparently everyone became an incompetent idiot of a player in the wait for the sequel to that game and need constant help. It's ridiculous! Apparently the newest Horizon game has this issue too and it was bad enough a patch got put out to tone it down, but I've not played it yet to see first hand what degree that game does it to. I don't know what got into some of Sony's first party studios in recent years but I feel like more of them lately can't have NPC's or the main character shut up for a moment during gameplay to let the player just play the game.

I'm aware of some Nintendo games doing this sort of behaviour too, although those too are none I've experienced first-hand to know just how bad they actually are.

Anyone else here have any bad experiences with games that can't leave the player alone they want to share?

[Mr EliteL]

The amount of that in GoW:R sounds so awful. I'm almost surprised once the chest was in your field of vision, the guy didn't just go "My brother, the treasure chest needs to be opened!" Before interrupting you to tell you about the hook.

Everyone having to tell you what to do if you aren't actively already on that path, why is that the thing you need to give the NPC's to do while they wait for you? So annoying. I can't think of game that does it to that extent, I'd probably refuse to continue playing. If I get a bit of handholding I just ignore it and they usually won't continue to do so unless I meet another situation like it again.

I personally don't dislike this but I know many players hate how the Pawns in Dragon's Dogma must always remind you of weaknesses and such of enemies you come across. Another thing they do is if they have quest knowledge, they will head towards that path expecting you to follow them (you may have to have the quest selected, can't remember). Neither of these bother me really, especially in fighting I do my own thing, or try and get them to combo with me if I Antler Toss an enemy then they blast it with an arrow or the element they're weak to.

[Moonface]

The amount of that in GoW:R sounds so awful.  I'm almost surprised once the chest was in your field of vision, the guy didn't just go "My brother, the treasure chest needs to be opened!" Before interrupting you to tell you about the hook.

Everyone having to tell you what to do if you aren't actively already on that path, why is that the thing you need to give the NPC's to do while they wait for you? So annoying. I can't think of game that does it to that extent, I'd probably refuse to continue playing. If I get a bit of handholding I just ignore it and they usually won't continue to do so unless I meet another situation like it again.

No, the NPC's will never comment on any of the collectibles until you pick them up, but only if said collectible is a notable thing such as a piece of lore. That said, I do think if any chest involves a puzzle to unlock it, the NPC's will happily start telling you what to do with no hesitation.

The NPC dialogue got bad enough that at one point I went into the settings to mute the dialogue, but unfortunately that also mutes Kratos and every single enemy, making fights a nightmare when you can't hear what enemies are doing as they become completely silent.

I personally don't dislike this but I know many players hate how the Pawns in Dragon's Dogma must always remind you of weaknesses and such of enemies you come across. Another thing they do is if they have quest knowledge, they will head towards that path expecting you to follow them (you may have to have the quest selected, can't remember). Neither of these bother me really, especially in fighting I do my own thing, or try and get them to combo with me if I Antler Toss an enemy then they blast it with an arrow or the element they're weak to.

I can't recall Dragon's Dogma having any handholding moments, at least not annoying enough for me to remember them. I just got irked by pawns constantly getting in my way and started picking them up to throw them away from me so I could have some personal space back.

[ShiraNoMai]

Yeah Ragnarok is a special breed of... pain, when it comes to hand-holding and straight up backseating your gameplay. I agree that it really should be relegated to either "Give Me The Story" mode or have it be a specific accessibility feature for those that struggle with that kind of stuff cuz... wow, please let me experience the game how I choose, thank you.

Nintendo examples are vast and plenty. It became more apparent as time went on as well, especially in games like Zelda and Pokemon, where they really feel they need to force the light into your eyes every second it gets. And it's not even AI based like the modern Sony games are (contextual, optional even if heavy handed). It's just straight up scripted and forced onto you on rails.

The remake of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, for example, specifically nerfed the required nature of interruptions and intrusions from Fi, your "game assistant" for this entry. Like seriously, she would literally stop you in the middle of gameplay to tell you something absolutely asinine or unrelated to whatever you were doing to remind you of either mechanics or objectives.

[Moonface]

The remake of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, for example, specifically nerfed the required nature of interruptions and intrusions from Fi, your "game assistant" for this entry. Like seriously, she would literally stop you in the middle of gameplay to tell you something absolutely asinine or unrelated to whatever you were doing to remind you of either mechanics or objectives.

Considering how BotW does the complete opposite by letting the player do anything they want with little to no restriction tells me the developers got the message of just how much people hated the hand holding in Skyward Sword.
Did Pokémon ever get that same message or are they still very hand holdy?

[Maniakkid25]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that games should be doing this MORE often than they do. A lot of games out there (ESPECIALLY OLDER ONES) do NOT let you know what the flying f*** you're supposed to be doing, and a nice little reminder that "Hey, you need to do this to keep the story moving" would not go remiss, especially if it's, say, a game I dropped without completing for a year, and I can't remember what I'm doing in it. Sure, some people find it annoying, but I don't, especially if there's a mechanic I can't remember because, again, I stopped playing the game after not completing it.

The simple way to fix this problem is to just have a toggle. "Do you want helpful reminders? Yes or No?" This is the Easy Mode argument all over again; who is it hurting to have the option?

[Moonface]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that games should be doing this MORE often than they do. A lot of games out there (ESPECIALLY OLDER ONES) do NOT let you know what the flying f*** you're supposed to be doing, and a nice little reminder that "Hey, you need to do this to keep the story moving" would not go remiss, especially if it's, say, a game I dropped without completing for a year, and I can't remember what I'm doing in it. Sure, some people find it annoying, but I don't, especially if there's a mechanic I can't remember because, again, I stopped playing the game after not completing it.

The simple way to fix this problem is to just have a toggle. "Do you want helpful reminders? Yes or No?" This is the Easy Mode argument all over again; who is it hurting to have the option?

Oh yeah, a lot of older games were a little too vague about things you needed to do where using a guide almost felt like a necessity. Off the top of my head the old Tomb Raider games are rough to do without any guide, and there's even a level in Tomb Raider 3 I have never completed even with a guide!
For assistance after not playing for ages, I would love if games had just any sort of recap option of the story so far, especially for big open-world games where it's very hard to remember what you were doing compared to linear games. I didn't touch Assassin's Creed Origins for months and when I went back to it, I had forgotten what had happened so far and why I was doing whatever I was currently supposed to be doing, and I ended up just dropping it again because I couldn't really get into playing something cluelessly until stuff started to make sense again. I know people like how Elden Ring lacks a quest guide, but the lack of it is also a reason why I refuse to let myself go too long without playing that game because of the fear I'm going to forget who I've spoken to and what I need to do for them.

But yeah, it should absolutely be a toggle. I'm definitely not against assistance in games; I just hate it when games make it compulsory and go too far with it for my liking. Uncharted games have a compulsory hint system, but all the game does is throw up an R3 prompt if you've spent a while in a puzzle without making progress that you can ignore easily so that doesn't bother me. If I had Sully constantly in my ear saying "Hey Nate you should check your journal", "You can shoot that lock to open the door", etc. like the examples I gave for God of War Ragnarök then that would quickly piss me off because of how frequent and intrusive it is, but more so the latter. If I was just having a prompt on screen to push a button for a hint coming up all the time, it wouldn't bother me much because it isn't screaming for my attention or taking any agency away from me compared to an NPC repeatedly saying hints in my ear and acting like a walking guidebook.

[Maniakkid25]

You may want to avoid Persona 3, then. Fuuka does not ever shut up about how many enemies there are in a battle, when yes, I can clearly count, thank you! No, there is no option to turn it off.

I actually don't mind the constant annoyance usually. I mostly tune it out, and when I do get annoyed, it gives me a chance to rib the game. I can think of an example that bothers me, but it's an example of feedback, not handholding. In Dragon Age Origins, your character will say a voice line sometimes to let you know "Hey, I got the command, I will act on it now." But one of the voices for the main character makes me want to slap him. "Can I get you a ladder so you can get off my back?" Like, f***er, I'm just trying to pick up an item! Dickhead!

[Moonface]

But one of the voices for the main character makes me want to slap him. "Can I get you a ladder so you can get off my back?" Like, f***er, I'm just trying to pick up an item! Dickhead!

This is my biggest issue with Ragnarök. Although I notice NPC companions yelling advice to me in a battle, it's not as hard to ignore it because I have something to actively focus on, but when I'm just exploring the dialogue becomes very prominent due to the lack of a more important factor for me to focus on and doing anything but walking along the main path leads to constant remarks of going the wrong way, taking too long, or some other form of condescending remark about not doing the right thing. It'd be sorta like having Lakitu just yell at you to get back on course every time you go off the course edges in Mario Kart or something. It irks me most in sections where the developers will place health and rage stones just slightly off the path right before you're going to walk into what is clearly an arena, and the instant you go to collect them the quest companion you're with will say something like "I thought you said you were in a hurry?". The developers know that stuff is too important to skip it and still saw fit to make the NPC's comment on it which to me is the height of obnoxious. Do you want me to really collect the things you're placing in my line of sight to pick up that will help me get through the next section of your game or did you really expect me to just bum rush your game from A to B like a linear corridor game and ignore the rest of the stuff you made?