Unreasonably Difficult Bosses?

[Maniakkid25]

TAKE TWO!

Bosses. You know them. They are the climax of an area, ending off in a flurry of battle. A necessary inclusion in just about any game. And yet, there are some bosses that are difficult. Very difficult. And I don't mean "It's easy if you do this mechanic." I mean "Even for the game that it's in and doing it the right way, this boss is HARD!" These are the kinds of bosses that make lazy top 10 lists for "the most difficult evah!" and fill the TV Tropes page for That One Boss.

For the inspiration of this thread, I turn to this post I made about Digital Devil Saga's New Game+ Bonus Boss: The Demi-Fiend. Now, there are actually a lot of things that combine together to make this one of the hardest JRPG bosses ever put to polygons, so there's really no way for me to avoid making this a Wall O' Text™. Apologies in advance.

Why This Guy is So Damn Difficult

So, to start with, the fight has rules! Yes, you have to play by his rules, otherwise he just instantly kills you. See, in DDS, you can freely set up your 8 skills using a pool of skills you've unlocked previously, and some of these do useful passive stuff like, say, nullifying damage. If you bring ANY skill that nullifies, absorbs, or reflects ANY type of damage (Excluding Null Critical and Null Sleep -- more on that second one in a bit), he attacks using a move that deals 9000+ damage in a game where you only have 999 health, and if you somehow survive, he just spams it until you die. Did I mention that he also has instant-kill attacks that you are not allowed to nullify? Because he has instant-kill attacks that you're not allowed to nullify!

Next up is the fact that you can't actually damage him with standard attacks. See, he's based on the super secret final form you get in the game he's from, and that form nullifies ALL damage that isn't Almighty damage! Yes, it's that broken! Oh, we still haven't gotten to the actual fight, yet! To start with, this guy has a crit rate that is through the fucking roof. Like, legit, it's something like 90%. This in a game where you get free turns if you land a critical hit! And he gets an extra turn for free to begin with, because screw you, that's what SMT does!

Oh, and that's not including his friends! See, he has two demons that he summons at the beginning, and if you kill one, he just cycles to the next one on the list. He does this INFINITELY, never losing turns to revive a fallen demon, because why not? And when he gets to Pixie and Parvati in the cycle, that's when the Russian Roulette wheel spins! See, remember that Null Sleep skill I mentioned? It doesn't actually nullify the sleep condition, but instead makes you automatically dodge all attacks if you are put to sleep. This is where it becomes important, because Pixie and Parvati, when summoned, will cast the Sleep spell, and then the boss will use his uber-over-9000 attack that he reserves for when you break the rules! He only does this once per summon, but if you don't get slept, then you just die, no saving throw, too bad!

This is all on top of the usual SMT crap you're used to by now, such as instantly dispelling buffs and debuffs, and losing turns because OOPS, the game rolled a botch and your opponent dodged the attack! And just to put the cherry on the ice cream sundae of bullshit, his Pixie and Parvati have a full-heal spell that they will use one time when the guy hits half health. For reference, he has 18000 health.

Now, besides one or two psychos who managed to beat this guy at level 20, there has only been one strat that has been developed to be able to beat him with anything resembling consistency: The Red Star Strategy. Named after the user who developed it, the original post has been lost to time, but it's well-known enough to be google-able. It basically involves stalling out his Pixie so it runs out of MP, and then going for the kill. Even with this strat, it's a SLOG of a fight, easily taking upwards of 30 minutes at the fastest!

Oh, and your reward for this punishment? An equip you only get after importing your save to Digital Devil Saga 2. It's a good equip, no doubt, but not worth the price of admission!

[Moonface]

I really have to question that One Boss trope page and some of the entries. Like, Tiny Tiger in Crash Bandicoot 2? Really? That is not remotely close to "one boss" territory. It is not hard to realize you jump away from him and lure him to jump somewhere that a platform is about to fall down so he falls too.

I will agree with the entry for Delirium from The Binding of Isaac though. That thing is horrible and people have begged for it to get a rework because of how broken it is. I've only ever defeated it by having a run so utterly broken it doesn't get time to hurt me.

Also I just finished playing a game that might get one of the freshest entries in this thread, which although I don't know the name of it it was a boss in Dungeon Clawler. This piece of shit ended my entire run like it was nothing and I could do nothing about it. Every turn it stacked 3 poison onto me, and also stacked 3 heal per attack onto itself. It has 400hp, and each turn it gets to attack 5 times. Here's how its turns went:

1. Attacks 5x for 4 damage each time, which I block but it still heals for 15 (5x3) and at the end of the turn inflicts 3 poison damage on me. Any damage I did was pretty much all healed. 
   
2. Attacks 5x4d but now heals 6hp per attack, so now it heals 30hp. I can't even deal this much damage in two turns. I also now get 6 poison damage. 
   
3. Heals 45hp, gives me 9 poison. 
   
4. 60hp, 12 poison. 
   
5. 75hp, 15 poison. 
   
6. 90hp, 18 poison. 
   

I had no chance by the second turn in this fight but this was how far I held out before my health could no longer hold up from the damage coming in. Even if I could avoid the poison, there is no way I could ever deal enough damage. It so blatantly wasn't tested...

[Moonface]

I forgot about this one at the time I last posted but it's so notorious if you know the game that I have to mention it; the Benoit boss fight in Silent Bomber.

The video sums up everything I could write about it. I remember this fight absolutely slaughtering me as a kid and when I watched this video a while back I didn't remember anything but the chess part. I don't even know if the Benoit part of the fight is actually hard because of him as a boss or if it's hard because the screen becomes such a mess. This is also one of those wonderful bosses that are a ball ache from start to finish and if you die, it's all the way back to the first phase of the entire fight.


@Maniakkid25: As much as that first rule sucks, at least you'd find out the instant you start the fight rather than say, the skills requiring activation first before triggering an instant kill and using the skill a while into the fight. That said, I'm guessing there is nothing to indicate why you get instant-killed right out of the gate so you're somehow expected to eventually figure out it's due to bringing in forbidden skills?
Reading the rest of it, good lord I can't imagine any game having a fight as bad as what that sounds. I'd be surprised if speed runners even touch a run that includes the fight and they're the people I'd expect to find the most bullshit way of beating it.

[Maniakkid25]

Well, checking it on Speedrun.com, they do in fact touch it because they have to beat him in a 100% run! The current record is nearly 23 hours.

Speaking of, I've been playing the SMT Nocturne Remaster recently, and good lord, I hate prepping for the fight with the Matador. For those that don't know, Nocturne actually has three different versions. There's the Japan-exclusive original, the Maniax version, and the Chronicle version. The Maniax version is the one that was localized in the US and EU, and it added things like the Fiends and Amala dungeon, along with the ending associated with them. So, you'd expect that, since they were not in the base game, they wouldn't be required fights. You would be wrong! The Matador is the lone Fiend that you HAVE to fight in order to progress the story. He stands between you an Ikebukuro, and more importantly, the Demonic Compendium. And he is a right bastard to fight!

See, he functions as the game's skill check. This is the point where you either learn to use buffs and debuffs, or you never progress beyond him. He has a skill called Red Capote, that maxes out his accuracy and evasion to the cap of +4, and buffs and debuffs do NOT wear off in this game. So, you have to lower his accuracy/evasion, but if you bring it down to +0, he'll just use Red Capote again. Oh, yeah, it's a skill he can just use! He also has Mazan, so screw any demons that can't take Force damage, and he also has a wicked powerful physical attack called Andalucia that hits random allies. Oh, and did I mention he gets two turns? Because he gets two turns. This fight is so notoriously difficult, he was used as the header image for TV Tropes' That One Boss page.

I hate this fight, I'll be honest. The game is hard enough without dealing with his ass, and he all but requires you level up to a ludicrous level (level 18, and by the time I got to that point I was only level 12). And the sick part? If you want the canonical ending, you have to fight all the fiends, and he's the EASIEST ONE! They somehow manage to get HARDER from here!

[Maniakkid25]

*Throws down shovel* Phew! Had to search for this thread to necro it. But, I do have a reason to do so, so it's not pointless.

So, I've been playing Legend of Dragoon, and just beat the first disc. And considering that he hit me with 402 damage on a character with 636 health, my mind is stuck on the end boss of that disc: Emperor Doel. It's not a spoiler to say he's a boss fight; he's revealed as a villanous force in the very first cutscene, and given the major plot at hand, you probably knew you'd end up fighting him. What is a spoiler is how that fight progresses, so I'll just tag that and be on my way!

Doel Fight talk goes here

So, the fight actually has two forms. The first part is easy. He doesn't hit for too much damage, and he goes down pretty quickly. But then, just when you think it's a done deal (especially considering you just fought a pretty hard boss before this), he transforms into a Dragoon, and now your nightmare starts. I'll be straight up: if you don't have your Wind Dragoon up to Dragoon level 2, I don't know how you're supposed to win the fight. Doel is easily outputting 150+ damage to your characters without trying unless he uses his basic attack, and a level 2 Wind Dragoon knows Rose Storm, which halves damage for 3 turns. You need those turns to just be able to BREATHE, especially if he uses his super attack that nukes that same Wind Dragoon for 200 damage. Oh, I didn't mention the Wind Dragoon takes magic damage like a bitch, did I?

The worst part is, you're pretty locked in with party composition: Dart, Darkness Dragoon, and Wind Dragoon. You have two other members in reserve, but they are useless. The Light Dragoon is about 5 levels below your current average, and the Thunder Dragoon (who is the same element as Doel, meaning he would receive half damage from his magic) doesn't have his Dragoon Spirit yet. Darkness at least has a minor heal, and Wind has the damage reduction I mentioned. Even with this setup, you'll have one member pretty much on permanent heal duty, with the other two hopefully dealing enough damage to take him down. Oh, and as the final kick in the nuts? Doel's health more than doubles after his transformation.

Legitimately, there is an argument to be made that this is the hardest mandatory fight in the entire game. The only other fight that really has a shot at that claim is the disc 2 end boss. But THAT is a story for another time...

[Moonface]

And considering that he hit me with 402 damage on a character with 636 health, my mind is stuck on the end boss of that disc: Emperor Doel.

Seeing that HP to incoming damage ratio immediately made me think of some of the elite enemies in Slay the Spire, such as Nemesis who can potentially open the fight with 6x3 damage followed by 45 damage, so in just two turns you have to block or tank 63 damage. On average each playable character has 70HP, so it's like 90% of a character's health bar worth of damage this prick dishes out. Sure, you might have found ways to increase your HP before you find him, but that also assumes you don't enter the fight damaged. Then you have to hope your draw is decent to get block whenever he does a high damage attack, although even then getting 45 block in a single turn isn't common. Anyway, just had to get that off my chest.


As for the part where if you enter the fight blind and don't have your Wind Dragoon leveled up as a result (let alone even entering the fight with the right party setup), I'm always conflicted about how I feel about fights in games that brutally punish the player for lacking knowledge or setups the player can't know of beforehand on a blind playthrough. If there's a save/load point close to that Doel boss fight to prevent losing a ton of progress if you die, then I wouldn't mind it as much unless that same save/load point is too late to level up the Wind Dragoon for the fight. That's not to say if there is a generous save/load point in place the player can work with that a boss isn't unreasonably hard; I just think there's a fine line between unreasonable difficulty and unreasonable game design.

[Maniakkid25]

There is, in fact, a save point before the boss fight. That pre-boss you fight before Doel? There's nothing stopping you after that fight from backtracking ALL the way to the clinic, get a heal up, and going back to the save point to save before you go and fight Doel so you can go in with maxed out resources. So, you don't lose progress from a loss, you just waste time, and lose confidence as he kicks your ass over and over.

As far as getting the Wind Dragoon to Dragoon Level 2, you pretty much have to deliberately try to not level him up for him to have not hit level 2 by that fight. The last two dungeons forced him into your party (one because you only had three characters, and one because of storyline reasons), so he's been getting some use. You level up Dragoon Levels by generating SP, which is automatically generated through attacks, so as long as you don't suck at the Addition system, he'll be Dragoon Level 2 long before then. If he isn't somehow? You're screwed. The area you are stuck in has no random encounters and exactly ONE respawning enemy. Have fun wasting an hour or so to get him up to snuff!