Accessibility in Games - Developers or Hardware?
Moonface Offline
#1
Phoggies!
Administrators
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553
Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
So for about a week now the internet has been in a bit of a frenzy about whether Sekiro should add an easy difficulty, with the subject being muddied as one of making the game easy vs. making the game accessible for people who have disabilities that make playing a game harder than it usually is.

I don't really think there needs to be a debate on whether games should be accessible to people who can't play a game like the majority of people can. I do wonder though who the responsibility should fall onto. Should a developer try to implement ways people with impairments can play the game, or should it be dealt with by hardware like with Microsoft's accessibility controller? Do you put optional changes into the game, or just give people better tools to play the same way as everyone else?

I think that if a developer wants to do it, awesome. Go right ahead. However, not every developer necessarily has the resources to implement features that cater to the range of possible disabilities a player might have. There's also older games that were made at a time no one would even think of colour blind support and subtitles, let alone more complex means of accessibility. So I think that ultimately, there should be hardware created that makes games accessible. It's probably a lot easier to do that, and it lets every game potentially be accessible instead of just the ones that had developers who chose to do it. Also, I know this may not be a great comparison, but people have beaten games like Dark Souls with a guitar controller, so clearly the games can be beaten with more than just a regular controller, and if you can beat a game with crazy controllers, then surely there's a good chance for people with disabilities to beat the same game if they have the right controller to play with.

I don't think the game itself is necessarily unbeatable unless it gets tweaked. I think people just need the tools that let them have the capabilities others do, like how someone can still run on a track with a missing leg by using a prosthetic. You don't change the tracks, you just gave someone the tools they needed to let them do what everyone else is able to do. You could change the track of course, but you don't need to if you just let people get the tool that suits them. For all you know, you could change the track and find that the changes didn't work for everybody.
[Image: hbCSi7H.gif]

I, the Philosophical Sponge of Marbles, send you on a quest for the Golden Chewing Gum of the Whoop-A-Ding-Dong Desert under the sea!
#1
Moonface Offline
Phoggies!
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553 Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
So for about a week now the internet has been in a bit of a frenzy about whether Sekiro should add an easy difficulty, with the subject being muddied as one of making the game easy vs. making the game accessible for people who have disabilities that make playing a game harder than it usually is.

I don't really think there needs to be a debate on whether games should be accessible to people who can't play a game like the majority of people can. I do wonder though who the responsibility should fall onto. Should a developer try to implement ways people with impairments can play the game, or should it be dealt with by hardware like with Microsoft's accessibility controller? Do you put optional changes into the game, or just give people better tools to play the same way as everyone else?

I think that if a developer wants to do it, awesome. Go right ahead. However, not every developer necessarily has the resources to implement features that cater to the range of possible disabilities a player might have. There's also older games that were made at a time no one would even think of colour blind support and subtitles, let alone more complex means of accessibility. So I think that ultimately, there should be hardware created that makes games accessible. It's probably a lot easier to do that, and it lets every game potentially be accessible instead of just the ones that had developers who chose to do it. Also, I know this may not be a great comparison, but people have beaten games like Dark Souls with a guitar controller, so clearly the games can be beaten with more than just a regular controller, and if you can beat a game with crazy controllers, then surely there's a good chance for people with disabilities to beat the same game if they have the right controller to play with.

I don't think the game itself is necessarily unbeatable unless it gets tweaked. I think people just need the tools that let them have the capabilities others do, like how someone can still run on a track with a missing leg by using a prosthetic. You don't change the tracks, you just gave someone the tools they needed to let them do what everyone else is able to do. You could change the track of course, but you don't need to if you just let people get the tool that suits them. For all you know, you could change the track and find that the changes didn't work for everybody.
Quote
Dragon Lord Offline
#2
LV.99 Weeb
*******
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124
Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
Some games just can't be played by some people. It's a truth that people need to accept and just deal with it.

I suck at rhythm games, but I still play them despite it. I don't whine and cry that they need to make it easier to perfect songs in the games because I'm not able to perfect the hardest song in the game.

Sekiro is meant to be hard, it's meant to bust your balls over and over again. They should absolutely not ruin the game by adding in an easy mode or making the game easier in any way. The whole point of a game like Sekiro is to get your ass handed to you over and over again until you LEARN from your mistakes and figure out how to overcome. Not everyone is going to be able to handle playing a game like this. Oh well. That's life. Don't ruin the game because people would rather whine about it then get good. Or in the case of disabled people, find another game to play that is more on your level. Sorry, I know it's not your fault you have a disability, but not every game has to be catered to you because of it.

I've been seeing so many people whine about the game because they try to play it in the wrong way, and instead of learning how to properly play the game, they whine and cry for an easy mode or for FromSoft to add in multiplayer so they can summon 2-3 other players to hide behind while being carried through the entire game. This is not a Souls game, and you cannot play it like a Souls game.

Either learn the game and how to properly play it, or find something that's more on your skill level. Don't ruin a challenging game just because gamers now days want their hands held and be able to practically walk to the end of the game without having to put any effort into actually playing (I recommend Visual Novels for these people... but then again, they'd probably complain that they have to read).
2023 Platinum Goal: 4/50 (Copium)
Latest Platinum:  Elden Ring (PS5)
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
#2
Dragon Lord Offline
LV.99 Weeb
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124 Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
Some games just can't be played by some people. It's a truth that people need to accept and just deal with it.

I suck at rhythm games, but I still play them despite it. I don't whine and cry that they need to make it easier to perfect songs in the games because I'm not able to perfect the hardest song in the game.

Sekiro is meant to be hard, it's meant to bust your balls over and over again. They should absolutely not ruin the game by adding in an easy mode or making the game easier in any way. The whole point of a game like Sekiro is to get your ass handed to you over and over again until you LEARN from your mistakes and figure out how to overcome. Not everyone is going to be able to handle playing a game like this. Oh well. That's life. Don't ruin the game because people would rather whine about it then get good. Or in the case of disabled people, find another game to play that is more on your level. Sorry, I know it's not your fault you have a disability, but not every game has to be catered to you because of it.

I've been seeing so many people whine about the game because they try to play it in the wrong way, and instead of learning how to properly play the game, they whine and cry for an easy mode or for FromSoft to add in multiplayer so they can summon 2-3 other players to hide behind while being carried through the entire game. This is not a Souls game, and you cannot play it like a Souls game.

Either learn the game and how to properly play it, or find something that's more on your skill level. Don't ruin a challenging game just because gamers now days want their hands held and be able to practically walk to the end of the game without having to put any effort into actually playing (I recommend Visual Novels for these people... but then again, they'd probably complain that they have to read).
Quote
Moonface Offline
#3
Phoggies!
Administrators
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553
Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
People wanting a game made easier because it's too hard isn't the same as disability access. Those people should absolutely learn to get better. But when someone wants to play a hard game and can't because of impairments, it's wrong to tell them tough shit. They can't help their impairments and efforts should be made to help those people. Not the ones who could play it but bitch about difficulty, but the ones who want to play and are unable to.

Microsoft seem to be the only company who understood that and responded by building a controller to let those people play. If I lost my hand, I'd still want to play the games I was playing before, and if someone said to me "Well go play another game" as the solution, that's out of line.

I doubt someone with a disability looks at any game and wishes it was easier to play in regards to difficulty level. They want it easier to play in regards to not having their disability prevent them from enjoying the experience their able bodied peers get to enjoy.
[Image: hbCSi7H.gif]

I, the Philosophical Sponge of Marbles, send you on a quest for the Golden Chewing Gum of the Whoop-A-Ding-Dong Desert under the sea!
#3
Moonface Offline
Phoggies!
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553 Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
People wanting a game made easier because it's too hard isn't the same as disability access. Those people should absolutely learn to get better. But when someone wants to play a hard game and can't because of impairments, it's wrong to tell them tough shit. They can't help their impairments and efforts should be made to help those people. Not the ones who could play it but bitch about difficulty, but the ones who want to play and are unable to.

Microsoft seem to be the only company who understood that and responded by building a controller to let those people play. If I lost my hand, I'd still want to play the games I was playing before, and if someone said to me "Well go play another game" as the solution, that's out of line.

I doubt someone with a disability looks at any game and wishes it was easier to play in regards to difficulty level. They want it easier to play in regards to not having their disability prevent them from enjoying the experience their able bodied peers get to enjoy.
Quote
Dragon Lord Offline
#4
LV.99 Weeb
*******
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124
Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
It goes way beyond just having a controller that disabled people can use (though I saw a one-armed man speedrun NieR: Automata with a DS4, so seems pretty accessible for disabled people already ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

Taking Sekiro as an example again (since people want to go as far as saying that FromSoft is discriminating again disabled people), it doesn't matter if they made a controller that is easier for a disabled person to use, they'd still greatly struggle with the game due to the required reflexes needed and how high the skill floor is for the game. Which would then lead right back to the "muh easy mode" whining. Sekiro already lets you freely map the buttons as you see fit, so there's already the ability for a disabled person to make it easier for themselves to play when it comes to that issue. But that's not going to help them be able to react fast enough to what the enemy is doing,

It's fine if a company wants to make a more disabled-friendly controller like Microsoft did, but a large majority of the people who are so suddenly very concerned for disabled people's ability to play a game are more worried about making games easier in terms of difficulty. An obvious sign that they're raising the banner for disabled people in an attempt to get games made easier for themselves (again, Sekiro being a prime example of this). And trying to paint the picture of a game developer discriminating against disabled is just fucking pathetic and takes away any legitimacy their rallying as.

tl;dr

Controller for disabled people - Fine

Making games easier because disabled people lack the reflexes/skills to play them - Fuuuuuuuuuck no. There's plenty of easier games for people to play that they can find.
2023 Platinum Goal: 4/50 (Copium)
Latest Platinum:  Elden Ring (PS5)
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
#4
Dragon Lord Offline
LV.99 Weeb
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124 Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
It goes way beyond just having a controller that disabled people can use (though I saw a one-armed man speedrun NieR: Automata with a DS4, so seems pretty accessible for disabled people already ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

Taking Sekiro as an example again (since people want to go as far as saying that FromSoft is discriminating again disabled people), it doesn't matter if they made a controller that is easier for a disabled person to use, they'd still greatly struggle with the game due to the required reflexes needed and how high the skill floor is for the game. Which would then lead right back to the "muh easy mode" whining. Sekiro already lets you freely map the buttons as you see fit, so there's already the ability for a disabled person to make it easier for themselves to play when it comes to that issue. But that's not going to help them be able to react fast enough to what the enemy is doing,

It's fine if a company wants to make a more disabled-friendly controller like Microsoft did, but a large majority of the people who are so suddenly very concerned for disabled people's ability to play a game are more worried about making games easier in terms of difficulty. An obvious sign that they're raising the banner for disabled people in an attempt to get games made easier for themselves (again, Sekiro being a prime example of this). And trying to paint the picture of a game developer discriminating against disabled is just fucking pathetic and takes away any legitimacy their rallying as.

tl;dr

Controller for disabled people - Fine

Making games easier because disabled people lack the reflexes/skills to play them - Fuuuuuuuuuck no. There's plenty of easier games for people to play that they can find.
Quote
Moonface Offline
#5
Phoggies!
Administrators
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553
Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
If a developer wishes to find a way to tweak their game to better suit slower reactions for disabled players, they can, but I agree they shouldn't be obligated to do so. If Sekiro would still be hard for people even with a controller that can provide assistance, then it's unfortunate but not something I would call discriminatory. Would it be awesome if FromSoft offered a way to help players in that situation? Absolutely. But if even with the appropriate hardware the game can't be played, then it doesn't mean the developers were discriminatory. They just simply made a game that can't work for everyone even if you had a controller that tries to alleviate some of the problems.

On the flip side, if FromSoft patched in a difficulty that was designed with disabled players in mind, there shouldn't be a need to complain. The regular difficulty will still exist, and if people who aren't disabled choose to pick the tweaked difficulty, then so be it. Sure, they'll beat the game easier, but I still get to enjoy the game how I want to. I don't think people should use cheats in Minecraft, but if they do, whatever. It won't affect me. The only thing that's out of line is non-disabled players making demands and claims to mask their wants for an easier time. If you want an easy mode for you, then be honest and stop trying to use a third party as a scapegoat and to look like a white knight. Especially if disabled players aren't kicking up as much of a fuss as you are and are acting civil about the matter.
[Image: hbCSi7H.gif]

I, the Philosophical Sponge of Marbles, send you on a quest for the Golden Chewing Gum of the Whoop-A-Ding-Dong Desert under the sea!
#5
Moonface Offline
Phoggies!
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Moonlighter (PC) | The Binding of Isaac: Repentance (PC)
Favourite Platform(s)
PlayStation | Nintendo | PC
Pronouns
he/him
XP: 29,553 Kirby (Shiny) Mario Kart (Shiny) Spyro The Dragon 
If a developer wishes to find a way to tweak their game to better suit slower reactions for disabled players, they can, but I agree they shouldn't be obligated to do so. If Sekiro would still be hard for people even with a controller that can provide assistance, then it's unfortunate but not something I would call discriminatory. Would it be awesome if FromSoft offered a way to help players in that situation? Absolutely. But if even with the appropriate hardware the game can't be played, then it doesn't mean the developers were discriminatory. They just simply made a game that can't work for everyone even if you had a controller that tries to alleviate some of the problems.

On the flip side, if FromSoft patched in a difficulty that was designed with disabled players in mind, there shouldn't be a need to complain. The regular difficulty will still exist, and if people who aren't disabled choose to pick the tweaked difficulty, then so be it. Sure, they'll beat the game easier, but I still get to enjoy the game how I want to. I don't think people should use cheats in Minecraft, but if they do, whatever. It won't affect me. The only thing that's out of line is non-disabled players making demands and claims to mask their wants for an easier time. If you want an easy mode for you, then be honest and stop trying to use a third party as a scapegoat and to look like a white knight. Especially if disabled players aren't kicking up as much of a fuss as you are and are acting civil about the matter.
Quote
Dragon Lord Offline
#6
LV.99 Weeb
*******
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124
Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
What FromSoft needs to do is punish the whiners by patching the game to be even harder. Want to whine that the game is too hard? Here, have an even harder game.

Luckily FromSoft is the type of company who will stick to their guns. There is no way they'll add an easy mode to Sekiro. They want to make games that are extremely challenging and force players to learn and get good to overcome the difficulties in the game. The Souls games started to slip in this regard (Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 being pathetically easy), but they've regained that with Sekiro. I don't think any amount of bitching from Activision will get them to budge on their stance. They want games that people have to EARN their victories in. Not be hand-held through. As they say, "Get good or go home."
2023 Platinum Goal: 4/50 (Copium)
Latest Platinum:  Elden Ring (PS5)
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
[Image: DragonLord1389.png]
#6
Dragon Lord Offline
LV.99 Weeb
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
Wuthering Waves | Zenless Zone Zero | Genshin Impact | Honkai Star Rail | Arknights | Aether Gazer | Azur Lane | Dark Souls III | Elden Ring
Favourite Platform(s)
PS3, PS4, PS5, Vita, PC
Pronouns
Cute/Funny
XP: 11,124 Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) Hatsune Miku (Shiny) 
What FromSoft needs to do is punish the whiners by patching the game to be even harder. Want to whine that the game is too hard? Here, have an even harder game.

Luckily FromSoft is the type of company who will stick to their guns. There is no way they'll add an easy mode to Sekiro. They want to make games that are extremely challenging and force players to learn and get good to overcome the difficulties in the game. The Souls games started to slip in this regard (Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3 being pathetically easy), but they've regained that with Sekiro. I don't think any amount of bitching from Activision will get them to budge on their stance. They want games that people have to EARN their victories in. Not be hand-held through. As they say, "Get good or go home."
Quote
Monocle Offline
#7
o.q
****
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
A lot! weep
Favourite Platform(s)
PC! Emulatiooooon
Pronouns
Yes
XP: 5,728
Super Mario Bros. Borderlands 
Literally was discussing this lol.

for me, it isn't about difficulty and disabilities, but about creative freedom. Developers have it hard enough when publishers demand certain things of them and it stifles their original image of the game but when a minority, supposedly because who knows, is demanding certain features and it was never the developer's or publisher's intention, or worse it tarnishes the creativity they intended like Sekiro being a  hard and technical game to play, then I think that is a step too far. No one likes being bullied. Yeah patching an easy mode with auto parry and auto comboing would be ridiculously easy BUT that's not what they wanted. And to satisfy a minority, which is what they are financially, because morals or social acceptance and alienate your core audience just isn't fiscally responsible along with the creative freedom being limited.

As for hardware, even then there's only so much that can be done. Imagine trying to develop a controller for people with no arms but all want to play? Yeah there aren't many people like that and the development and production costs of such a controller would probably outweigh the gross earnings, but you can do it so do it!

Plus, unfortunately, disabled people quickly or have already learned what their limitations are. I'm on the shorter side. I can't dunk in basketball. I demand they lower the height of hoops in professional basketball so that I can dunk. See how silly that sounds? I know that's kinda unreasonable but think about it? A small group of people who can't do something the same way others can demands a change on a national or global scale to make it accessible to themselves and completely alienate those that were the established consumer. That's literally the definition of fiscal suicide, not that I think this would cause that sort of drastic result.

P.S. typed this on my phone. I am not responsible for any spelling and grammar errors. ha ha ha lolol
#7
Monocle Offline
o.q
Posts:
Threads:
Joined:
Jun 2018
Currently Playing
A lot! weep
Favourite Platform(s)
PC! Emulatiooooon
Pronouns
Yes
XP: 5,728 Super Mario Bros. Borderlands 
Literally was discussing this lol.

for me, it isn't about difficulty and disabilities, but about creative freedom. Developers have it hard enough when publishers demand certain things of them and it stifles their original image of the game but when a minority, supposedly because who knows, is demanding certain features and it was never the developer's or publisher's intention, or worse it tarnishes the creativity they intended like Sekiro being a  hard and technical game to play, then I think that is a step too far. No one likes being bullied. Yeah patching an easy mode with auto parry and auto comboing would be ridiculously easy BUT that's not what they wanted. And to satisfy a minority, which is what they are financially, because morals or social acceptance and alienate your core audience just isn't fiscally responsible along with the creative freedom being limited.

As for hardware, even then there's only so much that can be done. Imagine trying to develop a controller for people with no arms but all want to play? Yeah there aren't many people like that and the development and production costs of such a controller would probably outweigh the gross earnings, but you can do it so do it!

Plus, unfortunately, disabled people quickly or have already learned what their limitations are. I'm on the shorter side. I can't dunk in basketball. I demand they lower the height of hoops in professional basketball so that I can dunk. See how silly that sounds? I know that's kinda unreasonable but think about it? A small group of people who can't do something the same way others can demands a change on a national or global scale to make it accessible to themselves and completely alienate those that were the established consumer. That's literally the definition of fiscal suicide, not that I think this would cause that sort of drastic result.

P.S. typed this on my phone. I am not responsible for any spelling and grammar errors. ha ha ha lolol
Quote


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Secret Discoveries in Games Moonface 1 81 Nov 9th, 2024, 12:41 AM
Last Post: Maniakkid25
  Games Done Quick | AGDQ '24 List Revealed Moonface 43 6,585 Nov 1st, 2024, 08:50 PM
Last Post: Moonface
  Anticipated Games Moonface 52 21,661 Oct 25th, 2024, 09:54 AM
Last Post: queenzelda
  Fan Made Games Moonface 24 6,345 Oct 4th, 2024, 11:43 PM
Last Post: Kyng
  "Typecast" Developers/Publishers Moonface 5 239 Sep 29th, 2024, 09:50 PM
Last Post: Mr EliteL

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 3 Guest(s)