Your views on the emulation world

[Nightingale]

Is it just me or has it come to an absolute stalemate?

Like, some consoles are emulated perfectly and are a delight to play across multiple platforms (Genesis, SNES, GBA...) while others either leave much to be desired, even after an "usable" version has come to light (N64, Saturn) or plain have never been ventured into much in order to receive a proper emulator (Virtual Boy, Jaguar). And, of course, there's the third group: those that have never taken off properly and are a mess to use, outside of some really popular games (DS).

Me personally? I'm happy to grab whatever I can get when it comes to playing all those different systems I currently do not own (and chances are that's not going to change much, as some of those go for a lot of money on online auctions) but I can't help but wondering what is exactly causing such massive shifts of tone on the so-called scene.

Some people are saying that the famous N64 emulator, Project64, has changed devs and the new team seems far more interested in sneaking malware into the code than it is in making it a better version of it. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I don't wanna find out.

There were also large reddit topics talking about a ton of drama involving the devs -or at least the lead developer- of DesMuME, causing them to leave the half-made emulator behind and focus on another project (which seems to be yet another DS emulator).

And, of course, there's more than a bit of the classic bickering involving things like "who gave you permission to use this?" or "why did you code that in such a way" that's really not making much more than weakening the badly-required sense of community necessary to drive these projects to a good end.

If I may be blunt, I don't think we have moved an inch forward in a long time... and I just don't see that changing any time soon. Because, sure, we can have an emulator up and running for pretty much any platform in no time, but those are for the consoles we have known how to emulate for a long time; anything not on that specific group is going to be really painful to use (if it even gets to an usable state).

What do you think, though?

[Chloe]

Yea, I mean I'd love to be able to find a working 3DS emulator & play a few 3DS titles, but unless you hack an already owned 3DS to get the games to play on the emulator [according to some reading I've done] then what's even the point of emulating 3DS titles when you need a 3DS in order to get the game you want to play working right anyway? Might as well just get a frippen 3DS.

[Maniakkid25]

...or plain have never been ventured into much in order to receive a proper emulator (Virtual Boy, Jaguar).

Wait, who is asking for an emulator to the Atari Jaguar? H-have you seen that library? I can understand dumping the roms for a historical record, but to actually play? (then again, given the notorious hardware issues that the Jaguar had, an Emulator may vary well be the only way to play such games. I'm looking at you, Jaguar CD).

See, I really like the concept of emulation, because it means that we never have to worry about losing the hardware to play these games; they'll never be lost to the mists of time (hopefully; rare arcade games and the like notwithstanding [one word about Polybius will get you a slapping]), but the problem is the law hasn't really caught up with the concept of "preservation" as a legal defense for alleged copyright infringement. That more than anything, to me, is the death knell for emulation as a whole, and why changing devs is the least of its problems. We can always hope that the devteams have the best intentions, but they constantly walk a razor-thin tightrope, so finding out they're doing crap things isn't exactly shocking. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to lead the discussion on, I see this simply as a consequence of the setting that it's forced to be in, where it's often a small team just trying to make sure they can do this without catching the ire of whatever big corporation owns the property rights, and drama and infighting is more or less bound to happen.

...Seriously, though, who wants a Jaguar emulator?

[lp0 on fire]

...or plain have never been ventured into much in order to receive a proper emulator (Virtual Boy, Jaguar).

...Seriously, though, who wants a Jaguar emulator?

From what I remember the Jaguar version of Wolf3D was one of the best ports.

[Moonface]

I'm fine with emulation for games that are old and can no longer be purchased, or if you bought the game and can no longer play it then I don't think emulating it is a problem since you already bought it but just want to continue using it.

Emulating games that can still be purchased on available systems is wrong and has no excuse. To me you're just pirating instead of buying the available product.

[Dragon Lord]

Emulating games that can still be purchased on available systems is wrong and has no excuse. To me you're just pirating instead of buying the available product.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. If it's a game that's impossible to obtain now days, then I don't have a problem with emulating. Though if it's a game that is available for purchase, then there's no excuse to emulate and you're just being a dick.

Especially now days where there's a lot of older games being re-released on PSN, Steam or the e-shop. That gives you many possible platforms to find the game on and actually purchase it.

[Nightingale]

Yea, I mean I'd love to be able to find a working 3DS emulator & play a few 3DS titles, but unless you hack an already owned 3DS to get the games to play on the emulator [according to some reading I've done] then what's even the point of emulating 3DS titles when you need a 3DS in order to get the game you want to play working right anyway? Might as well just get a frippen 3DS.

I remember following the development of an alleged 3DS emulator pretty closely a few years back.

Turns out they had the right idea but crashed headfirst into a situation not unlike the one you are describing. I don't think a working emulator will be seen anytime soon (if ever), but with the relatively low prices that stuff like the 2DS is going for, I think we are mostly alright.

Would be nice to have the option, though.

Wait, who is asking for an emulator to the Atari Jaguar? H-have you seen that library? I can understand dumping the roms for a historical record, but to actually play? (then again, given the notorious hardware issues that the Jaguar had, an Emulator may vary well be the only way to play such games. I'm looking at you, Jaguar CD).

Some Jaguar games are pretty great, dude (Alien vs Predator, Tempest 2000, Doom...) but I completely agree with the Jaguar CD bit. I wonder if an emulator capable of running the CD addon exists in any stage of development, as the regular Jaguar had pretty ok emulation for what it was.

See, I really like the concept of emulation, because it means that we never have to worry about losing the hardware to play these games; they'll never be lost to the mists of time (hopefully; rare arcade games and the like notwithstanding [one word about Polybius will get you a slapping]), but the problem is the law hasn't really caught up with the concept of "preservation" as a legal defense for alleged copyright infringement.

Yes... that's an uphill battle at best.

I know some companies -and individual developers- are totally cool with you keeping (and even distributing, in some cases) digital copies of games and other programs no longer being sold. But yeah, the vast majority of copyright holders aren't as nice when it comes to having their unreleased (for digital purchase) IPs floating around. I both get and don't get that, actually.

Like (and I'm totally making stuff up for this example) let's say that EA won't re-release one of their older titles for digital purchase -maybe because they don't see what kind of appeal could an early 90s DOS game have- and that's fair, that's their property getting buried... but let's also say that they have made it their mission to send cease and desist letters to any and all abandonware site carrying said game. That isn't as much a case of stopping piracy as it is a death sentence to that game.

And it just happens. Like, come on. Be a pal

That more than anything, to me, is the death knell for emulation as a whole, and why changing devs is the least of its problems. We can always hope that the devteams have the best intentions, but they constantly walk a razor-thin tightrope, so finding out they're doing crap things isn't exactly shocking. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding what you're trying to lead the discussion on, I see this simply as a consequence of the setting that it's forced to be in, where it's often a small team just trying to make sure they can do this without catching the ire of whatever big corporation owns the property rights, and drama and infighting is more or less bound to happen.

I know there's at least some flavor of that for sure, but personal experience has led me to believe that companies are far more interested in shooting down sites carrying their roms, than they are on jumping on the devs creating the emulators to play them on.

I don't even have to go that far to find a suitable example of this (although, I won't be naming the site involved since it is still online, just not very usable). You see... there was a really huge emulation site that I used to really dig around 2011 or so. They got a bunch of visitors and offered a ton of very good roms for download without much of a hassle. It was pretty great.

Around 2013 or so, however, they got hit with letters from Nintendo and made an announcement saying they would no longer carry any of their roms. That was a big blow, but it was immediately followed by the change of the complete site for the worst (had Ads everywhere after not having any, fishy downloads and whatnot) and even the complete abandonment of all of their social media accounts and forum (scheduled to "be back shortly" since then). Whatever was on those letters, Nintendo wasn't playing around.

And that's not even the only site I know that has gone down under similar circumstances... just the most notorious one.

I don't think any dev team was actually hit that hard by companies since the days of the colorful "Bleem!" (although I'm more than willing to believe that all the rest were at least warned). Please don't hesitate to prove me wrong if I am.

...Seriously, though, who wants a Jaguar emulator?

Well, I do xD

Maniak, you are a delight to read.

From what I remember the Jaguar version of Wolf3D was one of the best ports.

Doom is also up there

I'm fine with emulation for games that are old and can no longer be purchased, or if you bought the game and can no longer play it then I don't think emulating it is a problem since you already bought it but just want to continue using it.

Emulating games that can still be purchased on available systems is wrong and has no excuse. To me you're just pirating instead of buying the available product.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. If it's a game that's impossible to obtain now days, then I don't have a problem with emulating. Though if it's a game that is available for purchase, then there's no excuse to emulate and you're just being a dick.

Especially now days where there's a lot of older games being re-released on PSN, Steam or the e-shop. That gives you many possible platforms to find the game on and actually purchase it.

That's fair enough.

[Hotspot]

I agree with Moony, I think emulators are fine, as long as the game is old, and you can't find it anywhere, if you have it already, or if the game is unavailable to you (Like if it wasn't released in your country, or language). For example, Terranigma was never released in America. Then there's games like Suikogaiden, that are not in english.
I tried out Chrono Trigger many years ago, and you bet my bottom dollar that I bought it when they re-released it for the DS in 2008.

The only other time I think it could be okay, is if you're playing it to test it out, and then will buy it if you like it, or never touch it again.

[lp0 on fire]

You know coming from the PC perspective, some times emulation is required I am not talking about PS/N64/etc emulation but DOS and older computer titles that were on say Amiga or the BBC Micro.

If you look at the DOS games that are sold on Steam or GOG they come in a DOSbox emulation wrapper.

But even so, if I ever found the CDs or floppies to my old DOS games I would need to run DOSBox to get them to work, since Windows post 98/SE was no longer DOS based (although some DOS games will work in Windows XP).

Now even with as good as DOSBox is, like all emulators it isn't 100% The only way to get everything to run perfectly is via period hardware and software, a lot of retro gamers will have retro builds for this, but the cost and difficulty on acquiring the parts needed is quite high along with IDE you need to know how to set master and slave drives, instead of just simple plug and play that SATA is.

(I wonder how much I could sell my two windows 98 boxes for.... hmm... :p)

[Grungie]

I don't have a problem with emulation of old games, hell there's even legal emulation like Virtual Console or Playstation Classics.

[Monocle]

The biggest appeal to emulation for me are romhacks. There are a lot of excellent ones out there now. Anything ranging from difficulty hacks, like Chrono Trigger needing one, to full blown rewrites of a game's physics. Considering they aren't going to be released on official hardware, emulation is one of the only ways to play games into which fans have put a lot of hard work.

My second appeal, I guess, would be fan translations, but this is hit or miss. There are some games that have never, and will never, get localized. Publishers directly saying they have no interest in localizing their games. I'm not really looking at modern games obv but games like Fire Emblem 6, Tales of Innocence, etc etc. But you could still buy the games and support devs. Unfortunately, most people won't do that soooo that's why it was only an I guess for a second reason.

[Moonface]

In the case of localisations, I'd only support a developer who hasn't and won't do that if it were to somehow encourage them to localise future titles. Otherwise, my view would be that you're not selling a product to me and therefore won't be affected by me emulating it because you couldn't have ever gotten money from me for the game in the first place.

[Monocle]

In the case of localisations, I'd only support a developer who hasn't and won't do that if it were to somehow encourage them to localise future titles. Otherwise, my view would be that you're not selling a product to me and therefore won't be affected by me emulating it because you couldn't have ever gotten money from me for the game in the first place.

Well it has actually worked honestly. One group were translating Tales games that never made it West. They did Tales of Innocence, Tales of the Tempest, Tales of Phantasia PSX, and were working on Tales of Destiny Director's Cut and Tales of Phantasia X.

They eventually closed down and stopped because Bandai Namco finally started consistently releasing Tales games. Their original goal wasn't piracy but bringing games they enjoyed that they thought would never come over and when they started coming over, they stopped. Things like that I truly appreciate and emulation let's people enjoy their hard work and efforts.

[Grungie]

Sadly only one of those Tales games got officially translated.

[Monocle]

Sadly only one of those Tales games got officially translated.

Well, Destiny was localized on PSX and Phantasia was localized on gba but man... Kangaroo. lmao.

otherwise, yeah. Back on topic. emulation is fine imo but the more advanced the systems become, the harder it becomes to emulate. Like, iirc, the PS3's architecture was weird and until developers understood it better, developing was a pain. Now imagine emulating that.